The story of our summer was our major breakdown in remote Montana, and the subsequent full engine rebuild we carried out at Interstate PowerSystems in Billings, MT.
The question we have been asked a million times since we first posted about the breakdown has been – “just what went wrong?”
The symptoms defied a clear and obvious explanation, and even now we are still not absolutely certain.
After all – Zephyr is a 1961 bus with a 1973 engine block that hasn’t had much professional maintenance since the mid-80’s, and the bus had sat mostly idle and neglected for the 15 years before we bought her.
We knew when we bought the bus (for just $8,000!) that we were buying into a mechanical unknown, and we immediately set aside the necessary funds and planned for what we considered inevitable major engine work.
If anything – we were actually surprised that we had made it two years without any serious engine issues. Even several gurus of the bus world had commented at the “strong runner” we had lucked into with no external signs of the engine tired or worn out.
Getting rescued in rural Montana.
But… On June 14th 2013, we found ourselves stranded on the side of the road, with coolant boiling out all over remote Montana highway 212.
Unlike most overheating scenarios, our engine rapidly overheated going downhill after having successfully climbed a mild mountain pass with the engine temperature having barely budged above normal on the way up.
When we dissected the engine, two of the lower cylinders showed signs of extreme heat damage.
But what was the initial failure that lead to the cylinders melting down? The thermostats and coolant pump checked out as fine, as did the radiator and fan, and all of the other relevant engine internals.
The one thing that was glaringly and obviously wrong when we took the engine apart – the thing that caused our mechanics to exclaim “well, there’s your problem” when they saw it, was our air filter – a Baldwin PA2721.
See for yourself – it doesn’t take a trained eye to realize that something is wrong here:
It isn’t supposed to look like this…
This filter had been installed less than a year earlier, and had just 4,062 miles on it. And it had been installed with a Filter Monitor attached to indicate when the filter was becoming obstructed and was ready to be changed. According to the Filter Monitor, during our pre-departure systems check the morning of the breakdown the filter still had plenty of life left.
But…
Something had caused the air filter to fail catastrophically.
And though there is no way to know for certain that the air filter failing (and being partially ingested by the engine) was the root cause of our engine overheating and subsequent failure, very bad things can happen when an engine breathes unfiltered air and bits of torn up paper.
Did we have a defective filter? Was this what had killed our engine? Or was the filter an innocent bystander in the engine failure?
Baldwin’s Investigation
When we began to research what might have gone wrong – we discovered that Baldwin had an investigative process where they would look into failures, and they encouragingly offered that “if a Baldwin product is proven to have caused damage, Baldwin will pay the cost required to repair the equipment to its condition at the time the failure occurred.”
Though getting some of our repair work covered under warranty was appealing, we were even more interested in getting to the bottom of what had failed – and what could be done to prevent a future failure.
We promptly contacted Baldwin, and sent them photos of the filter.
The initial response from Baldwin Service Engineering on July 3rd was:
“The PA2721 is designed for outside to inside flow direction. The pictures illustrate the media was displaced due to an inside to outside flow direction. There is not an external wrapper on the media pack of the PA2721 to support the media in an inside to outside flow direction.”
Wait – what?! Had our filter been installed backwards?!!? Had we used an incorrect filter???
Though the GM 4106 was initially designed to use a big messy “oil bath” style filter, our bus had long ago been modified to use a large canister-style filter instead. According to the Detroit Diesel specifications (and confirmed by the mechanics at Interstate PowerSystems, and many of our bus guru mechanically inclined friends), the new filter style and size was a good match for our 8V71 engine.
The Baldwin PA2721 is the third air filter we have used in our bus since purchasing it. Our bus initially came with a Farr EcoLite C-62891-1 U — which had been in use for an unknown number of years and was extremely filthy (but structurally sound) when we replaced it. The second filter was a Wix 46891 – we replaced this after 1 year / 10k miles of trouble-free use.
The Baldwin PA2721 is marketed as a direct replacement for both of these filters, with no caveats given at all about flow direction.
The dirty Farr and the new Wix filter – the first and second filters used since we bought the bus.
I happened to have pictures of all three filters to compare.
The Farr EcoLite and Wix filter canisters are explicitly labeled as being bi-directional. The Baldwin canister lacks any flow direction labeling whatsoever.
I also noticed that visually comparing photos of the three filters, while constructed similarly – the failed PA2721 seems to have noticeably fewer of the structural support beads along the outside of the filter. In an “inside to outside” flow direction, these would be the primary support to hold the filter together against the airflow.
If you look closely (click for larger), you can see a protective mesh that was NOT present on our PA2721.
Also interestingly – if you look at the picture of the PA2721 on the Baldwin E-Catalog, there is a support mesh present on the outside of the pleats that is not present on the actual PA2721 design as we had been shipped.
Had the design been changed?
You can see right through to the interior protective mesh. I find it interesting that there is no outside mesh, and so few support straps…
When I confronted Baldwin with this information, on July 30th Baldwin’s Service Engineering Manager changed his initial assessment:
“In the interim, I have done some research on this style of product with regard to by-directional flow. This product may be used in either inside-out flow direction or outside-in flow direction, just as the filters it is designed to replace. The medias used in air filters, regardless of brand, have a high capacity side and a low capacity side. Typically, the high capacity side of the media is on the side of the incoming air. However, it does not prevent the filter from being flown in the opposite direction. In fact some filters are made specifically to have the low capacity side of the media on the incoming air side of the filter to reach the filter’s accumulative efficiency sooner.”
Baldwin asked us to send them the filter so that they could conduct a full investigation, and knowing how many people were following our engine rebuild story – we stopped speculating publicly on the causes of our engine failure, or mentioning the air filter situation further. We wanted to give them ample time to respond.
I had my own theories:
Perhaps the PA2721 suffers from a general design flaw that limits its capabilities when used in an “inside to outside” installation, and the filter is not able to meet its design specifications when used this way. After all, even Baldwin Service Engineering was not initially aware that the filter is specced to be used in either directional flow.
Or… perhaps our particular PA2721 suffered a manufacturing defect where insufficient beads of hot-melt were applied to keep the filter structure intact when under “inside to outside” pressure. This would explain why our filter had fewer of these support beads than the comparable Farr and Wix filters.
Baldwin’s Conclusion
After weeks of analysis, we heard back from Baldwin.
All Baldwin could conclude was… the filter had gotten wet.
Wet???
Specifically, from the (snail mail!) letter Baldwin sent us on August 20th:
We checked with both Choo Choo Express Garage that had installed the Baldwin filter, and Interstate PowerSystems that had removed it. And all the mechanics agreed that the filter was installed in such a way as to be completely removed from any possibility of direct water exposure.
One of these assessments we were sent:
“I don’t know where water intrusion would get up and into the filter, situated where it is at up in the engine compartment. I would think that if it got soaked enough to collapse while running that you would have had major major issues with the engine itself also at the time it occurred.”
Our air filter is installed up above the engine, thoroughly protected from water exposure.
Seeing as the filter failed after less than 10 months (and just 4,062 miles) in service – the only explanation left (other than a manufacturing defect) that seems plausible based upon Baldwin’s analysis is that the filter was unable to withstand the humidity and condensation of a typical winter in Florida, where we spent autumn through spring while dealing with a family member passing away.
Baldwin Goes Deeper
I continued to correspond with Baldwin, and on September 23rd they told me that they had done a more in depth analysis, and had concluded:
Water Staining
“We have revisited this investigation and conducted further examination into the returned filter. We had a portion of the housing removed to provide us with a larger view of the ruptured area of the media and the condition of the media in the vicinity of the rupture. From our initial review of the media, it is apparent that the media was subjected to moisture, as indicated by the moisture stains on the media. Please see the attached pictures showing the yellow staining of the media. Removal of a portion of the housing where the media ruptured revealed additional moisture staining of the media. When the media of an air filter is subjected to moisture, its restriction to airflow can increase exponentially, varying on the degree of moisture. Structural integrity testing of the design of this product has shown the design to endure at least 63″ of water with no evidence of media rupture. Given the fact that the air filter should be serviced when a restriction of 20″-25″ is reached, the structural integrity of this design will endure more than 2X the recommended maximum restriction the filter should endure in service.
Through review of the information we have received, it is evident that the media was subjected to moisture. We are unable to determine how much moisture or the method by which the media became wet. Nonetheless, the evidence indicates that the excessive restriction created by the wet media and the compromised structural integrity of the media contributed to the media rupture.”
I remain very puzzled as to why the filter minder was not indicating any signs of imminent failure – the filter minder the morning of the breakdown was reading in the green zone (between 15″ – 22″ – closer to the 15″ mark).
If the filter had become obstructed due to moisture, the filter minder should have indicated a problem long before the critical 63″ of water rupture point that Baldwin’s letter references.
Open Questions
The PA2721 has a metal mesh on the inside of the filter material, but not on the outside.
We made it clear to Baldwin that we were less interested in getting any sort of reimbursement than we were in getting to the root cause of the filter failure, so that we can avoid similar problems in the future – and help others avoid a similar fate as well.
Baldwin invited me to send them any further questions, and this is what I told them I would love to have answered:
You mentioned the structural integrity testing of the PA2721 filter shows the filter to be able to “endure at least 63in of water with no evidence of media rupture” – has this testing been performed with both inside-out and outside-in flow directions? Is there a difference in the range of results based upon flow direction?
I notice that the PA2721 filter as pictured on the Baldwin e-Catalog site features a visible mesh on the outside of the filter that would have likely prevented this sort of failure. At what point was the design changed to remove this mesh, and why was it removed? Was the structural integrity testing performed again after this change? How did this change impact the results?
In your initial email on this issue, you said: “There is not an external wrapper on the media pack of the PA2721 to support the media in an inside to outside flow direction.” What is this “external wrapper” that you are describing here? Is it present or not on the PA2721 as shipped?
The PA2721 as shipped has a protective mesh on the inside of the filter, but not on the outside? Why is this mesh on only one side of the filter?
What environmental testing has been done on the Baldwin filters in various humidity and temperature conditions? Is there any reason that a Baldwin filter might not be able to perform adequately after a Florida winter? Are these usage guidelines documented anywhere?
I haven’t heard anything yet, but if I ever hear back from Baldwin again, I will update this post.
Avoiding Future Failures
I have been holding off on posting this final failure analysis update for a while now – hoping to reach a more solid conclusion on just what went wrong with our engine.
But in truth it remains a mystery whether the engine failed because of bad air and debris, or whether the filter failed as a result of the engine overheating for some other reason. There is too much else that can go wrong with an old engine to know for sure.
Perhaps the filter had actually failed previously, maybe even months before the breakdown. If so – months of dirty air could have contributed to the engine failing, and with a tear in the filter that would explain why the Filter Monitor was not showing any excess restriction.
I had thought that Baldwin’s analysis would help answer some of these questions, but instead the initial inconsistent answers I received left me with very little trust remaining in Baldwin’s filters and specifications. If even Baldwin’s own Service Engineering team does not know that the PA2721 filter should be able to be used bi-directionally, how can I trust that the design had ever been properly tested?
Florida Coastal Camping – Not recommended with a Baldwin air filter?
I hoped to end this story by sharing how Baldwin had uncovered a design defect around “inside to outside” air flow that they were aiming to fix across the board, or perhaps they discovered there had been a manufacturing defect in our specific filter that was rare.
But either way, I wanted to see that Baldwin was learning from our experience and was aiming to make better products in the future.
Every company and every product line has failures – the key is to learn from them. I’m not convinced that Baldwin has learned anything here.
Without further answers about Balwin’s designs and testing process, it seems as if the only conclusion we can reach and bit of actionable advice we can give is to recommend that Baldwin air filters be avoided, particularly in humid environments – and especially when used for “inside to outside” airflow.
And after this experience, we are sure that we will never be letting a Baldwin filter of any sort near our fresh and fully rebuilt engine ever again.
I have read most of the engine rebuild post and found it very interesting. My question is in the end did the rebuild change anything aside from just working. Was it easier to start, had more power, better fuel mileage, less noise, make the heaters hotter, go slower downhill, go faster uphill, make the transmission shift smoother (cooler)? just wondering.
As far as the rebuild itself – really no difference. But there have been changes due to the changes we made during the rebuild.
Everything runs much cooler due to the increased radiator size, thermostats and adding a transmission cooler. We also decreased our injector size, so we actually have less power up hills (but really haven’t noticed any reduction of speed). We did that for better fuel economy – we’ve gone up from an average of 6.65 mpg to now 7.0.
And the engine is much easier to start, as we added a block heater (and now have a hyrdronics system that preheats).
I came across this by accident. This is a very interesting read. Good for you to put Baldwin on the spot. I will not run those cheap ass filters on anything I own.
I run only Wix filters. I proudly made in NC.
As for the 8k rebuild, you got off cheap. My last engine at caterpillar was $289500.
Read this blog and I feel this”experience” of yours could possibly happen to me. This was scary, to say the least. Thanks for this very useful information. Scott Campbell. Simi Valley, Ca.
I have found your article very interesting and consulted with my father who, at 75 and over 55 years in the diesel field , is more knowledgeable than me. Question #1 when torn down was the blower locked up or the blower shaft stripped? The reason is the tolerance between the housing is .002 to .003 and was designed to strip the blower shaft if any debri found its way past the filter. Question #2 What was the altitude of the mountain pass? Question #3 Was the blower wire mesh screen in place on top of the blower. Please let me know ….Stacy Swallows instructor Sequoyah High School Diesel Equipment Technology
Based on the information so far and further discussions with my dad, reveals a strong possibility of the air filter was a contributing factor but not the full cause. Deductive reasoning shows that the particles would restrict the air flow and increase heat..but if was the single cause then the blower would have had severe damage and shaft would have been stripped. I believe the contributing factors of restricted air flow, higher elevation, and rise in engine temp caused the failure. The restricted air flow would increase higher engine temps and then the increase would cause fuel not being burned effectively and increase the possible scaring of piston in the cylinder bore. The air filter was definitely the beginning of the problem to cause the failure.
Mario T.says
No filter manufacturer will actually back their product as they say they will. I had a Donaldson oil filter blow its rubber seal and deplete the engine oil of a skidsteer. Donaldsons own “investigation” confirmed that the filter gasket had failed but suggested that the problem “may have been a faulty bypass valve”. Total cost of a replacement engine was $16K and Donaldson refused to accept one cent of responsibility for what even they had found to be a failure on their products part. These guys are trained to find the most improbable yet irrefutable cause possible in order to not accept responsibility for their products.
Hi, I continue to think about this…and your comment about finding paper shrapnel at the time of the tear down, I now think does indicate that the filter probably failed shortly before the overheat. Its rupture would likely happen explosively and one would think only disperse the paper element significantly ONE time and then the airflow would pass freely. So the question remains why did it fail? It wasn’t old, It wasn’t filthy (certainly not as dirty as the Farr that had been removed earlier), all engines (on planet Earth anyway), breathe tons of water at least in the form of humidity so Baldwins pointing to water stains is moot, so what, normal…should be able to take it in stride. I would bet that you can soak that Donaldson filter in water and run it with no negative effect. And Donaldson cautions against over servicing air filters due to a new filters reduced dust capturing capacity (one of the facts that had I forgotten). Anyway your filter failure IS Baldwins fault, it just has to be, them discounting their responsibility due to water stains is ridiculous, period! Now that I have that solved, haha, proving that the filter failing caused the overheat will be more difficult. But I’m still thinking. Maybe Brandon can get his dad to keep searching his brain for the answer as well. PS “If it’s organized it’s not hoarding”, that’s what I tell anybody that’s jealous of my vast collection of treasure! RE your storage unit.
In regards to the overheating and potential filter restriction, are you able to view your exhaust emission state from the drivers position? That has been my #1 favorite thing about the drivers side ground dump on my 6-71. Let’s me see if I need to take my foot out of it on the climbs (N65 injectors over here) to prevent further heating.
I’ve re-read your description of the failure during the climb (and decent). There’s obviously no doubting that the engine substantially overheated (showed the torn liners photo to my Dad, a DD 2-stroke mechanic, and he was not surprised). It seems odd that the engine would have enough power to climb if the restriction was that bad and it was overfueling/chugging black smoke. I would think that once it tore the filter element to shreds that it had no issues breathing (of course, now dusting the engine).
I half suspect that torn filter element happened long before your ‘final climb’?
Quite the curious predicament. I still run oil bath filters for the sake of simplicity (not many miles a year). All my round paper filtered vehicles draw from the center.
Glad you two are back on the road with a fresh engine. The Ghost will get kitted one of these days 🙂
K&N filters are discouraged by most mechanics of Detroit Diesels as well as the company DD engines.
They have been known to have small air leaks in the elements that will let dirt and dust particles penetrate the media.
Good write up Chris, thanks for sharing! Very interesting indeed. It sounds, from the above, that we may never really know the full cause/effect chain of what happened with your failure. It, unfortunately, will be in the s**t-happens category.
The one thing that I have learned is that I will not ever be using a Baldwin filter for anything; not so much that I directly suspect them in this particular case (although they certainly look pretty suspect), but in their CYA mentality and almost pathological need to distance themselves from this issue.
It was obvious from the first email response, you posted above, that Baldwin techs were more interested in figuring out any way to abstract Baldwin from this issue than in actually investigating anything or learning anything in earnest. Only when pushed did they continue to “investigate”; or more appropriately ad-hoc adapt the process to better suit their desired result/conclusion.
That alone speaks volumes of the company’s overall commitment to product. In addition to that, the clear confusion of the tech, coupled with the misrepresentation of the website photos indicate some serious communication and internal product integrity issues. While I’m sure 100 people can run Baldwin filters, in perfectly ordinary scenarios, and see no issues; it only takes a handful of extraordinary situations to really measure the metal of a company and how it handles those ‘out of the ordinary’ circumstances.
Indeed – the thing that upset me the most was the first reply from the Service Engineering _Manager_ (incorrectly) indicating that the filter had been run backwards.
There was no curiosity to dig into the problem, and it seems like Baldwin’s main goal was to find a reason to get off the hook – rather than to find the likely cause of the problem and ways they could learn to make their own products better.
Curious if you considered k&n washable/reusable filters or if the shop that rebuilt your engine discouraged it
38-2001S looks just like the canister model you have.
I’ve heard mixed things about K&N filters from other bus nuts, but some swear by them.
I do find it interesting that K&N sells two filters labeled as PA2721 replacements. One is intended for “inside-to-outside” airflow, and the other is the reverse.
One thing came to mind. Does someone make a bypass filter. Like the ones used in oil filters. If there’s a restriction in an oil filter the poppet blows out and bypasses the filter media. Letting the engine run just unfiltered oil. I wonder if someone makes an air filter with the same type of features that avoids catastrophic restriction to the air intake? Just a thought…?
I’ve never heard of such a thing – usually a Filter Minder is used to indicate how much restriction the engine is experiencing, and thus when the filter needs changing.
Running unfiltered air for even a short while can cause substantial damage to an engine.
While I’m too busy to spend much time researching the possibilities related to your “case”…haha my curiosity makes it difficult to forget that photo of your trashed Baldwin. I skimmed this: http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/061238.pdf this morning. I always laugh remembering older truckers that thought I was “too smart for my own good” and “read too much” 30+ years ago when they apparently felt threatened by me and my beautiful custom built truck. I remember one old guy that angrily told me “I have forgot more than YOU know!” Ha turns out NOW I know what he meant. Lots of valuable info in that file. In closing, it sure would be interesting to hear what Donaldson would say about your situation. I bet they would love to hear from you and see your photos, a second opinion from a different manufacture could help solve this mystery. I doubt they would throw Baldwin under the bus, but may provide a clue.
Indeed – Donaldson has an amazing amount of technical engineering documentation and detailed specifications published. Baldwin has nothing at all comparable.
If anyone has any contacts at Donaldson, please point them at this post. I’d love to hear (on or off the record) from them about their thoughts.
For work today I ordered a Donaldson snorkel hood. Its a little hood for a soldering station with an articulating arm and filter. My rep at donaldson is steve.kilar@donaldson.com He is based out of Corona CA. His direct number (951) 278-8392. Not sure he could help you but may be able to point you in the right direction. Ive never spoken to him. Only email. Good Luck
We had an American Eagle until we downsized in May. Our air filter looked similar to yours, got from Napa. It was in Florida for five of the 18 months we had it, we traveled over 10K miles, and I inspected it at the 13 month mark and it was still in great shape. Had intended to change it at the 15K mark, but we decided to downsize before we got there. I too think this was a bad filter. Moisture of Florida does not sound like the cause. I would suggest that you change the filter again in December/January, and take the old filter apart yourself and see if you see any water signs at all just to rule out any chance of water sucking into the filter from the air intake. –Dave
We will be in Florida again this winter, and indeed – when we next change air filters you can bet we will be dissecting the one we take out to look for anything odd.
I do remember that the Wix we changed out after 10k miles (the filter before the Baldwin) looked barely used at the time we removed it, but I hadn’t of course ripped the paper apart to look for signs of subtle staining.
The crown hold more punch in there minds because school buses are many and if word got out Ya know. And you guys are only 1 old Bus???
Oh wait we have a bus too and ,4,000 other we both know. I wonder if they know that. Well lets we have 3 Air filters on our MCI 5 C and 3 Fuel filters 2 oil filters, 1 really big Automatic Transmission filter, 1 E- type air system filter and various others X 4000. I guess that is a few.
Just saying!…
Just me thinking as others said If it failed creating the engine to overheat and push out coolant as stated then as the air flows through the engine compartment from bottom to top and back down, it would be true that at least the humidity from the water could have stained the filter element after the fact. Depending on how much coolant was actually in the water. Some of us how have Detroit diesels actually run just water with little coolant in them depending on climate so sweet smell is not always present.
If your engine leaked coolant or overheated and spewed steam the filter would end up showing signs of water damage. Totally unrelated to the whole disaster. The question remains did the filter fail and then get wet from coolant? Did the filter failure contribute to the engine failure? Baldwin dropped the ball and tried to blame you. My choices will be influenced by their response.
The steam and coolant were blowing out the radiator surge tank overflow – on the bottom of the engine on the opposite side from the air intake.
And since there was no coolant found in the oil, there was definitely no steam or coolant blowing backwards through the engine into the air filter.
I am really curious whether or not I will hear anything further back from Baldwin. They invited me to send them further questions – but I haven’t heard anything from them since.
Chris, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. You would think with the money that Baldwin makes, they would throw a couple grand your way. Then instead of everybody not buying a baldwin filter everybody would say gee what a great company. I don’t know what to think about these companies anymore. Robbie
On the BNO boards, someone today shared a story of how a Donaldson air filter failed in a Crown bus they were managing. Donaldson took the failure seriously, and within two weeks they were buying the school district a remanufactured engine and even covering the labor.
This sort of non-defensive customer-focused attitude is exactly why we have become loyal Mac users as well.
I have had had many experiences over the years with tech issues where I have gone into an Apple store and without any fuss walked out with a brand new replacement – occasionally even when the original product is out of warranty.
When a company stands behind their products, customers eventually notice.
A very detailed investigation and write-up. I have to admit the moisture in the filter is a conundrum, and I would be of the same mind as others on here that something happened to that filter which should not, possibly before you got it. If it really got moist from sitting in Florida climates that’s a shockingly poor design. Certainly the position in your bus protects it from any external moisture.
And yes, I’d agree to NEVER use a Balwin filter ever again…
Hi chris, first I want to make it clear that I’m not suggesting water got in your system. I am curious on how your filter failed that badly. Your mid passenger side configuration with baffle is very common on diesel pushers but can let water in under extreme circumstances. I highly doubt that was the case but just an opinion their is a slight possibility. The diesel engine is basically a large vacuum and nothing in the screen or baffle that I’m aware of lets water out if it ever makes it in. If you can imagine a bucket of water being thrown at the direction of the screen, it would be sucked in especially under heavy throttle. If you hit a gigantic puddle and the wind was blowing in the right direction? Kind of like the stars lining up. I think your filter just happen to fail naturally quicker than it should have. Moisture in a filter is going to happen, so I think Balwins analysis is a CYA. If your baffle is anything like mine, its main purpose is to change the direction of the hose without having too many bends. It has no water capturing/containing ability. Not apples to apples as my set up is a 2003 cummins ISC engine. I did have an AFE oil bath filter that I removed and installed a fleetguard paper filter. Looks like Balwin is off my list.
Our baffle isn’t there to change the direction – the air passes straight through from one end to another, but only after having to zig-zag around several baffles first.
And at the bottom is a weep hole to let any captured water escape.
Our system really seems pretty immune to direct liquid intrusion – even from a perfectly aimed monster splash.
Baffles aren’t going to help against moist air however….
While a number of people have commented that the old oil bath filters were not very efficient, I could not help thinking that they would never collapse like the Baldwin did.
If they think that moisture made the filter weak, why would they make them out of paper? The media is going to get wet under some conditions, and according to Baldwin, if it gets wet, it will fail.
Our air filters occasionally get up to 1/2″ of water from driving through rainstorms. Rust is a hazard, but that is it.
If our bus still had the original oil bath filters, we probably would not have been tempted to change them. They have their downsides, but if they are maintained properly they are a very robust design – even if a bit messy.
But our bus had been changed to a modern paper canister filter long before we bought her, so we don’t really have much choice in the matter at the moment.
Maybe someday we might change the engine bay around to support a different larger filter, but at the moment we have to make do.
There have been lots of info on failing paper filters on diesel pushers that I’ve read for the past year. The style you have is identical to mine. I believe they call it reverse flow, and pretty much most diesel pushers have that design due to space. What ive read is that your fresh air intake that is in the rear body of coach (they vary from coach to coach) can get water from a rainstorm. I know mine can. Some coaches have the air intake on the drivers side mid height that can get drenched from passing trucks.some people have put shields around them. Just fyi. Water ingestion through the fresh air intake seems like a common occurance.
Our air intake is on the passenger side, mid-height. There is a screen and a large baffle chamber between the air intake and the air filter, making direct water ingestion essentially an impossibility. I’ve certainly seen many other air filter configurations that were much more exposed to incidental water.
well, I’ve been following your debacle since day one. When we bought our new ’08 Fleetwood Providence, I went to Gaffney South Carolina and went to camp freightliner. Mike Cody, the instructor, said never ever run a filter more than two years. Sometimes you should even remove a filter to check it physically. The first time I pulled the filter, which is on a 360 horse ISC Cummins engine, the area that is glued holding the filter together was starting to come apart . I don’t run in heavy rain unless I can’t help it. It happens occasionally, but I try to avoid it. Having seen what my filter looked like after less than 2 years I decided to change it every year. I use wix from Napa and so far knock knock knock on wood, haven’t had a problem. Also, I’m wondering, about the Detroit two cycle, with the RPM’s on an engine, if I recall, are really high. Could this in fact have helped the filter to decompose because of the greater flow of air to the engine? Again, I’m not completely familiar with the Detroit, but I drove 14 wheeler that had a Detroit in it and the noise was unbelievable, I actually had to wear hearing protection when I drove that rig. All the best, Robbie…p.s.I wrote this on my phone so if the spelling looks all screwed up is because I’m having a hard time trying to read it myself. Good luck
We had been on a routine of changing our air filter annually – which is actually more conservatively than just about any recommendation I have heard, particularly considering how few miles we tend to drive.
Detroits tend to actually run at fairly low RPM’s compared to a lot of engines. Our engine maxes out at around 2,100 RPM, and typically cruises at just 1,500 RPM. The airflow specifications for this filter should be able to handle our engine without trouble.
As always, great stuff guys, thanks. I suspect you may be right thinking the filter may have failed a while ago. Was an oil sample done before the tear down? Any clues such as an increase in oil consumption or any performance changes leading up to the overheat? Even if not, I’m just grasping for proof, THAT FILTER HAS TO BE THE CULPRIT! What did your mechanics say about cylinder/piston/ring wear? I too only use an air cleaner restriction gauge as a tool not as a “time to change” indicator, have you considered that resetting it to 0 routinely, rechecking after a few hard pulls… staying falsely low might allow you to suspect a loss of system integrity. Please don’t be too quick to let Baldwin off the hook on this. Water stained filter…come on you are more capable than I to calculate the tremendous volume of air a diesel engine processes in a day let alone a year. Even the best engineered air intake system’s attempt to provide “dry” air seem to be quite passive in design. I have driven trucks thousands of miles through monsoon like rain storms, with no problems. I would stop at a few Baldwin dealers and see personally what their stock for your part # looks like, might be telling. It seems apparent that your filter was not ready to be used flowing in that direction (which isn’t that uncommon, as you stated Baldwin themselves approves it). I have really enjoyed following your posts, and appreciate your sharing detailed information. Just remember what their warranty said… if it turns out their product failing (seems likely to me) caused your problem, letting them off the hook allows them to possibly change nothing. Making them pay will insure many things will improve. Just my 2 cents worth. Be careful on the highways!
There was no unusual oil consumption or performance changes in the month before the filter failed. And I would also occasionally reset the Filter Minder to zero to make sure that it was reading a relatively current maximum suction – and I hadn’t noticed anything unusual there either.
The Farr filter that was on the bus when we purchased it was so caked in dirt that I was amazed that the engine even still ran when we first swapped it out, but it showed no signs of failing at all. That this Baldwin filter failed after such a short time and having been driven so few miles in such mild conditions is shocking.
We hardly ever even drove in the rain – our standard procedure is to get off the road when the weather even gets a bit wet!
Yes.. as stated in the above article, we do keep open that the filter was perhaps an innocent bystander during the engine failure. However, there was no sign of coolant going in, and there was no smell of it.
Thanks Chris for the great writeup. I can only imagine my own frustration with an obvious filter failure, but the failure of the mfg to admit their own design error. It’s difficult enough to maintain these vehicles without the added confusion of filter failure! Just a minor point: it looks like your filter failed from the inside out, but your final advice said to especially avoid use in an outside to inside application? Did I misunderstand? Nevertheless, I’ll avoid Baldwin filters in the future.
I have to admit when I first saw the photo, I thought “oh no, they couldn’t have broken down again” and was relieved you didn’t. I’ve been following you for awhile and all through the engine rebuild….quite fascinating. Hope you are able to finally figure out what caused the failure. Happy trails 🙂
Well, all I gather from reading this is, never use a Baldwin filter. No filter should catastrophically fail like that. Period.
And really, I’ve only ever used WIX filters, so I had never even heard of Baldwin filters. I’ll just tuck that little snippet away, thanks.
Interesting comment from fella above about humidity stains. My thought was perhaps that (filter)stock was soaked in a flood somewhere, dried out and resold, unknown (or known) to the stock room, you bought it from.
Having a yearly oil change etc done to my 2 yr old coach last year, the Freightliner shop suggested that we change my air filter also. I pointed out that the indicator was in the “OK” range and the service person said the glue they use to stick the filter elements to the rings etc,
deteriorates after 2 yrs and the filter starts to fall apart. I know yours was only a year old after installation but maybe it sat on a shelf for years. Just another point to consider. I really enjoyed the rebuild process you guys posted.
Ah, excellent point about the age of the filter before installation. I know we have that date in our notes, and it was just a few months old then – well under an age of concern. Once we are back to the bus this afternoon, I’ll poke Cbris to update with that info.
According to the serial number, the filter was manufactured Oct 5, 2011. It had been on a shelf somewhere for many months before it was installed, but the filter was still well under two years since manufacture when it failed.
I too am curious if it might have somehow gotten wet before it was installed, but I actually happen to incidentally have a picture of the Baldwin box the filter came in when it was sent to Choo Choo Express garage, and the box at least was pristine cardboard.
Maybe it had gotten wet after being manufactured and before being packaged for sale?
Its common practice to “rebox” product if the packaging becomes damaged or faded.
Bryansays
I have never been a fan of “captured” filter media used in the design of your air filter. It doesn’t lend itself to an effective inspection during installation or service. I have to agree with a previous poster that Baldwins analysis is basically CYA. Keep an ear to the ground if you can to hear if Baldwin issues a stock recall on product with your date coding. In the mean time continue running a filter with a robust outer mesh.
Ed Hackenbruchsays
I don’t trust filter minders, don’t have one and never will. I have run heavy equipment in lots of dirty, dusty conditions and have seen times when the minder said the filter was fine and yet the machine quit running because the filter was so clogged that no air was passing thru. I change all of my filters on a yearly basis due to age rather than mileage and if i were to go thru an extremely dusty area i would inspect and change the air filter if needed.
We never used our filter minder to determine when to change our filter, and since owning the bus routinely changed the filter annually. It’s just one tool to perhaps catch a problem.
However, it had been less than a year when this filter failed. And anything visible we could have inspected if we were suspect (we had not been in any dusty environments since installing it), could not have been visually seen without cutting apart the filter canister itself.
Nice write up of your interaction with Baldwin. I wonder was the filter moisture contaminated while it sat on a shelf waiting for you to purchase it? I’m curious that only part of the filter medium has signs of moisture, if high humidity was the “cause”, the paper would be stained evenly.
I agree, looking at your pictures there is no way water could be ingested into the filter. I guess the jury is still out, but I’ll take your suggestion as gospel and never use a Baldwin air filter on my motorhome’s diesel!
I live in humid southern Indiana and locally I’ve been told by NAPA and AutoZone when replacing my car/truck filters for oil…use WIX….that is the same filter they use in the coal mines.
I know your problem was not with an oil filter but the name WIX seems to be very reputable and you did mention you had zero problem with your prior WIX filter.
Good choice, that shop did a great job based on your posts and videos.
Michealsays
Wix was going to be my suggestion. They produce a number of filtering products under the Wix label and others such as Napa Gold. It’s what I use on my Perkins when available.
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When we began to research what might have gone wrong – we discovered that Baldwin had an investigative process where they would look into failures, and they encouragingly offered that “if a Baldwin product is proven to have caused damage, Baldwin will pay the cost required to repair the equipment to its condition at the time the failure occurred.”
I have read most of the engine rebuild post and found it very interesting. My question is in the end did the rebuild change anything aside from just working. Was it easier to start, had more power, better fuel mileage, less noise, make the heaters hotter, go slower downhill, go faster uphill, make the transmission shift smoother (cooler)? just wondering.
As far as the rebuild itself – really no difference. But there have been changes due to the changes we made during the rebuild.
Everything runs much cooler due to the increased radiator size, thermostats and adding a transmission cooler. We also decreased our injector size, so we actually have less power up hills (but really haven’t noticed any reduction of speed). We did that for better fuel economy – we’ve gone up from an average of 6.65 mpg to now 7.0.
And the engine is much easier to start, as we added a block heater (and now have a hyrdronics system that preheats).
I came across this by accident. This is a very interesting read. Good for you to put Baldwin on the spot. I will not run those cheap ass filters on anything I own.
I run only Wix filters. I proudly made in NC.
As for the 8k rebuild, you got off cheap. My last engine at caterpillar was $289500.
Read this blog and I feel this”experience” of yours could possibly happen to me. This was scary, to say the least. Thanks for this very useful information. Scott Campbell. Simi Valley, Ca.
I have found your article very interesting and consulted with my father who, at 75 and over 55 years in the diesel field , is more knowledgeable than me. Question #1 when torn down was the blower locked up or the blower shaft stripped? The reason is the tolerance between the housing is .002 to .003 and was designed to strip the blower shaft if any debri found its way past the filter. Question #2 What was the altitude of the mountain pass? Question #3 Was the blower wire mesh screen in place on top of the blower. Please let me know ….Stacy Swallows instructor Sequoyah High School Diesel Equipment Technology
Hi Stacy –
The blower was not locked up, and the wire mesh was still in place (and full of paper shrapnel).
The mountain pass was not unusually high or steep – I think the elevation at the top was less than 4000′ above sea level.
Cheers,
– Chris
Based on the information so far and further discussions with my dad, reveals a strong possibility of the air filter was a contributing factor but not the full cause. Deductive reasoning shows that the particles would restrict the air flow and increase heat..but if was the single cause then the blower would have had severe damage and shaft would have been stripped. I believe the contributing factors of restricted air flow, higher elevation, and rise in engine temp caused the failure. The restricted air flow would increase higher engine temps and then the increase would cause fuel not being burned effectively and increase the possible scaring of piston in the cylinder bore. The air filter was definitely the beginning of the problem to cause the failure.
No filter manufacturer will actually back their product as they say they will. I had a Donaldson oil filter blow its rubber seal and deplete the engine oil of a skidsteer. Donaldsons own “investigation” confirmed that the filter gasket had failed but suggested that the problem “may have been a faulty bypass valve”. Total cost of a replacement engine was $16K and Donaldson refused to accept one cent of responsibility for what even they had found to be a failure on their products part. These guys are trained to find the most improbable yet irrefutable cause possible in order to not accept responsibility for their products.
I have been following your posts with much interest.
I will certainly be avoiding Baldwin products in our bus!
Steve
Hi, I continue to think about this…and your comment about finding paper shrapnel at the time of the tear down, I now think does indicate that the filter probably failed shortly before the overheat. Its rupture would likely happen explosively and one would think only disperse the paper element significantly ONE time and then the airflow would pass freely. So the question remains why did it fail? It wasn’t old, It wasn’t filthy (certainly not as dirty as the Farr that had been removed earlier), all engines (on planet Earth anyway), breathe tons of water at least in the form of humidity so Baldwins pointing to water stains is moot, so what, normal…should be able to take it in stride. I would bet that you can soak that Donaldson filter in water and run it with no negative effect. And Donaldson cautions against over servicing air filters due to a new filters reduced dust capturing capacity (one of the facts that had I forgotten). Anyway your filter failure IS Baldwins fault, it just has to be, them discounting their responsibility due to water stains is ridiculous, period! Now that I have that solved, haha, proving that the filter failing caused the overheat will be more difficult. But I’m still thinking. Maybe Brandon can get his dad to keep searching his brain for the answer as well. PS “If it’s organized it’s not hoarding”, that’s what I tell anybody that’s jealous of my vast collection of treasure! RE your storage unit.
Hey Guys,
Interesting findings about the filter breakdown.
In regards to the overheating and potential filter restriction, are you able to view your exhaust emission state from the drivers position? That has been my #1 favorite thing about the drivers side ground dump on my 6-71. Let’s me see if I need to take my foot out of it on the climbs (N65 injectors over here) to prevent further heating.
I’ve re-read your description of the failure during the climb (and decent). There’s obviously no doubting that the engine substantially overheated (showed the torn liners photo to my Dad, a DD 2-stroke mechanic, and he was not surprised). It seems odd that the engine would have enough power to climb if the restriction was that bad and it was overfueling/chugging black smoke. I would think that once it tore the filter element to shreds that it had no issues breathing (of course, now dusting the engine).
I half suspect that torn filter element happened long before your ‘final climb’?
Quite the curious predicament. I still run oil bath filters for the sake of simplicity (not many miles a year). All my round paper filtered vehicles draw from the center.
Glad you two are back on the road with a fresh engine. The Ghost will get kitted one of these days 🙂
K&N filters are discouraged by most mechanics of Detroit Diesels as well as the company DD engines.
They have been known to have small air leaks in the elements that will let dirt and dust particles penetrate the media.
Good write up Chris, thanks for sharing! Very interesting indeed. It sounds, from the above, that we may never really know the full cause/effect chain of what happened with your failure. It, unfortunately, will be in the s**t-happens category.
The one thing that I have learned is that I will not ever be using a Baldwin filter for anything; not so much that I directly suspect them in this particular case (although they certainly look pretty suspect), but in their CYA mentality and almost pathological need to distance themselves from this issue.
It was obvious from the first email response, you posted above, that Baldwin techs were more interested in figuring out any way to abstract Baldwin from this issue than in actually investigating anything or learning anything in earnest. Only when pushed did they continue to “investigate”; or more appropriately ad-hoc adapt the process to better suit their desired result/conclusion.
That alone speaks volumes of the company’s overall commitment to product. In addition to that, the clear confusion of the tech, coupled with the misrepresentation of the website photos indicate some serious communication and internal product integrity issues. While I’m sure 100 people can run Baldwin filters, in perfectly ordinary scenarios, and see no issues; it only takes a handful of extraordinary situations to really measure the metal of a company and how it handles those ‘out of the ordinary’ circumstances.
And in that sense, Baldin failed!
Indeed – the thing that upset me the most was the first reply from the Service Engineering _Manager_ (incorrectly) indicating that the filter had been run backwards.
There was no curiosity to dig into the problem, and it seems like Baldwin’s main goal was to find a reason to get off the hook – rather than to find the likely cause of the problem and ways they could learn to make their own products better.
Disappointing overall.
– Chris
Curious if you considered k&n washable/reusable filters or if the shop that rebuilt your engine discouraged it
38-2001S looks just like the canister model you have.
John Pack
65 pd4106
Crete, Illinois
I’ve heard mixed things about K&N filters from other bus nuts, but some swear by them.
I do find it interesting that K&N sells two filters labeled as PA2721 replacements. One is intended for “inside-to-outside” airflow, and the other is the reverse.
– Chris
One thing came to mind. Does someone make a bypass filter. Like the ones used in oil filters. If there’s a restriction in an oil filter the poppet blows out and bypasses the filter media. Letting the engine run just unfiltered oil. I wonder if someone makes an air filter with the same type of features that avoids catastrophic restriction to the air intake? Just a thought…?
I’ve never heard of such a thing – usually a Filter Minder is used to indicate how much restriction the engine is experiencing, and thus when the filter needs changing.
Running unfiltered air for even a short while can cause substantial damage to an engine.
– Chris
While I’m too busy to spend much time researching the possibilities related to your “case”…haha my curiosity makes it difficult to forget that photo of your trashed Baldwin. I skimmed this: http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/061238.pdf this morning. I always laugh remembering older truckers that thought I was “too smart for my own good” and “read too much” 30+ years ago when they apparently felt threatened by me and my beautiful custom built truck. I remember one old guy that angrily told me “I have forgot more than YOU know!” Ha turns out NOW I know what he meant. Lots of valuable info in that file. In closing, it sure would be interesting to hear what Donaldson would say about your situation. I bet they would love to hear from you and see your photos, a second opinion from a different manufacture could help solve this mystery. I doubt they would throw Baldwin under the bus, but may provide a clue.
Indeed – Donaldson has an amazing amount of technical engineering documentation and detailed specifications published. Baldwin has nothing at all comparable.
If anyone has any contacts at Donaldson, please point them at this post. I’d love to hear (on or off the record) from them about their thoughts.
Cheers,
– Chris
Chris,
For work today I ordered a Donaldson snorkel hood. Its a little hood for a soldering station with an articulating arm and filter. My rep at donaldson is steve.kilar@donaldson.com He is based out of Corona CA. His direct number (951) 278-8392. Not sure he could help you but may be able to point you in the right direction. Ive never spoken to him. Only email. Good Luck
We had an American Eagle until we downsized in May. Our air filter looked similar to yours, got from Napa. It was in Florida for five of the 18 months we had it, we traveled over 10K miles, and I inspected it at the 13 month mark and it was still in great shape. Had intended to change it at the 15K mark, but we decided to downsize before we got there. I too think this was a bad filter. Moisture of Florida does not sound like the cause. I would suggest that you change the filter again in December/January, and take the old filter apart yourself and see if you see any water signs at all just to rule out any chance of water sucking into the filter from the air intake. –Dave
We will be in Florida again this winter, and indeed – when we next change air filters you can bet we will be dissecting the one we take out to look for anything odd.
I do remember that the Wix we changed out after 10k miles (the filter before the Baldwin) looked barely used at the time we removed it, but I hadn’t of course ripped the paper apart to look for signs of subtle staining.
– Chris
The crown hold more punch in there minds because school buses are many and if word got out Ya know. And you guys are only 1 old Bus???
Oh wait we have a bus too and ,4,000 other we both know. I wonder if they know that. Well lets we have 3 Air filters on our MCI 5 C and 3 Fuel filters 2 oil filters, 1 really big Automatic Transmission filter, 1 E- type air system filter and various others X 4000. I guess that is a few.
Just saying!…
Just me thinking as others said If it failed creating the engine to overheat and push out coolant as stated then as the air flows through the engine compartment from bottom to top and back down, it would be true that at least the humidity from the water could have stained the filter element after the fact. Depending on how much coolant was actually in the water. Some of us how have Detroit diesels actually run just water with little coolant in them depending on climate so sweet smell is not always present.
Wouldn’t your supercharger be the first thing to go, because from the air intake, to the filter it then goes to your supercharger.
Robbie
Most people do not refer to the blower on an 8V71 as a supercharger, but it does indeed sit between the air filter and the engine.
It had a bunch of paper shrapnel in it when we first disassembled it, but overall it wasn’t too obviously damaged.
We did have them do a full rebuild on the blower though just to be sure it was brought back fully into spec.
– Chris
If your engine leaked coolant or overheated and spewed steam the filter would end up showing signs of water damage. Totally unrelated to the whole disaster. The question remains did the filter fail and then get wet from coolant? Did the filter failure contribute to the engine failure? Baldwin dropped the ball and tried to blame you. My choices will be influenced by their response.
The steam and coolant were blowing out the radiator surge tank overflow – on the bottom of the engine on the opposite side from the air intake.
And since there was no coolant found in the oil, there was definitely no steam or coolant blowing backwards through the engine into the air filter.
I am really curious whether or not I will hear anything further back from Baldwin. They invited me to send them further questions – but I haven’t heard anything from them since.
– Chris
Chris, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. You would think with the money that Baldwin makes, they would throw a couple grand your way. Then instead of everybody not buying a baldwin filter everybody would say gee what a great company. I don’t know what to think about these companies anymore. Robbie
On the BNO boards, someone today shared a story of how a Donaldson air filter failed in a Crown bus they were managing. Donaldson took the failure seriously, and within two weeks they were buying the school district a remanufactured engine and even covering the labor.
This sort of non-defensive customer-focused attitude is exactly why we have become loyal Mac users as well.
I have had had many experiences over the years with tech issues where I have gone into an Apple store and without any fuss walked out with a brand new replacement – occasionally even when the original product is out of warranty.
When a company stands behind their products, customers eventually notice.
And when they don’t – customers notice that too.
– Chris
A very detailed investigation and write-up. I have to admit the moisture in the filter is a conundrum, and I would be of the same mind as others on here that something happened to that filter which should not, possibly before you got it. If it really got moist from sitting in Florida climates that’s a shockingly poor design. Certainly the position in your bus protects it from any external moisture.
And yes, I’d agree to NEVER use a Balwin filter ever again…
Nina
Hi chris, first I want to make it clear that I’m not suggesting water got in your system. I am curious on how your filter failed that badly. Your mid passenger side configuration with baffle is very common on diesel pushers but can let water in under extreme circumstances. I highly doubt that was the case but just an opinion their is a slight possibility. The diesel engine is basically a large vacuum and nothing in the screen or baffle that I’m aware of lets water out if it ever makes it in. If you can imagine a bucket of water being thrown at the direction of the screen, it would be sucked in especially under heavy throttle. If you hit a gigantic puddle and the wind was blowing in the right direction? Kind of like the stars lining up. I think your filter just happen to fail naturally quicker than it should have. Moisture in a filter is going to happen, so I think Balwins analysis is a CYA. If your baffle is anything like mine, its main purpose is to change the direction of the hose without having too many bends. It has no water capturing/containing ability. Not apples to apples as my set up is a 2003 cummins ISC engine. I did have an AFE oil bath filter that I removed and installed a fleetguard paper filter. Looks like Balwin is off my list.
Our baffle isn’t there to change the direction – the air passes straight through from one end to another, but only after having to zig-zag around several baffles first.
And at the bottom is a weep hole to let any captured water escape.
Our system really seems pretty immune to direct liquid intrusion – even from a perfectly aimed monster splash.
Baffles aren’t going to help against moist air however….
While a number of people have commented that the old oil bath filters were not very efficient, I could not help thinking that they would never collapse like the Baldwin did.
If they think that moisture made the filter weak, why would they make them out of paper? The media is going to get wet under some conditions, and according to Baldwin, if it gets wet, it will fail.
Our air filters occasionally get up to 1/2″ of water from driving through rainstorms. Rust is a hazard, but that is it.
Good luck!
Tom
If our bus still had the original oil bath filters, we probably would not have been tempted to change them. They have their downsides, but if they are maintained properly they are a very robust design – even if a bit messy.
But our bus had been changed to a modern paper canister filter long before we bought her, so we don’t really have much choice in the matter at the moment.
Maybe someday we might change the engine bay around to support a different larger filter, but at the moment we have to make do.
– Chris
There have been lots of info on failing paper filters on diesel pushers that I’ve read for the past year. The style you have is identical to mine. I believe they call it reverse flow, and pretty much most diesel pushers have that design due to space. What ive read is that your fresh air intake that is in the rear body of coach (they vary from coach to coach) can get water from a rainstorm. I know mine can. Some coaches have the air intake on the drivers side mid height that can get drenched from passing trucks.some people have put shields around them. Just fyi. Water ingestion through the fresh air intake seems like a common occurance.
Our air intake is on the passenger side, mid-height. There is a screen and a large baffle chamber between the air intake and the air filter, making direct water ingestion essentially an impossibility. I’ve certainly seen many other air filter configurations that were much more exposed to incidental water.
well, I’ve been following your debacle since day one. When we bought our new ’08 Fleetwood Providence, I went to Gaffney South Carolina and went to camp freightliner. Mike Cody, the instructor, said never ever run a filter more than two years. Sometimes you should even remove a filter to check it physically. The first time I pulled the filter, which is on a 360 horse ISC Cummins engine, the area that is glued holding the filter together was starting to come apart . I don’t run in heavy rain unless I can’t help it. It happens occasionally, but I try to avoid it. Having seen what my filter looked like after less than 2 years I decided to change it every year. I use wix from Napa and so far knock knock knock on wood, haven’t had a problem. Also, I’m wondering, about the Detroit two cycle, with the RPM’s on an engine, if I recall, are really high. Could this in fact have helped the filter to decompose because of the greater flow of air to the engine? Again, I’m not completely familiar with the Detroit, but I drove 14 wheeler that had a Detroit in it and the noise was unbelievable, I actually had to wear hearing protection when I drove that rig. All the best, Robbie…p.s.I wrote this on my phone so if the spelling looks all screwed up is because I’m having a hard time trying to read it myself. Good luck
We had been on a routine of changing our air filter annually – which is actually more conservatively than just about any recommendation I have heard, particularly considering how few miles we tend to drive.
Detroits tend to actually run at fairly low RPM’s compared to a lot of engines. Our engine maxes out at around 2,100 RPM, and typically cruises at just 1,500 RPM. The airflow specifications for this filter should be able to handle our engine without trouble.
Detroits can be noisy though!
– Chris
As always, great stuff guys, thanks. I suspect you may be right thinking the filter may have failed a while ago. Was an oil sample done before the tear down? Any clues such as an increase in oil consumption or any performance changes leading up to the overheat? Even if not, I’m just grasping for proof, THAT FILTER HAS TO BE THE CULPRIT! What did your mechanics say about cylinder/piston/ring wear? I too only use an air cleaner restriction gauge as a tool not as a “time to change” indicator, have you considered that resetting it to 0 routinely, rechecking after a few hard pulls… staying falsely low might allow you to suspect a loss of system integrity. Please don’t be too quick to let Baldwin off the hook on this. Water stained filter…come on you are more capable than I to calculate the tremendous volume of air a diesel engine processes in a day let alone a year. Even the best engineered air intake system’s attempt to provide “dry” air seem to be quite passive in design. I have driven trucks thousands of miles through monsoon like rain storms, with no problems. I would stop at a few Baldwin dealers and see personally what their stock for your part # looks like, might be telling. It seems apparent that your filter was not ready to be used flowing in that direction (which isn’t that uncommon, as you stated Baldwin themselves approves it). I have really enjoyed following your posts, and appreciate your sharing detailed information. Just remember what their warranty said… if it turns out their product failing (seems likely to me) caused your problem, letting them off the hook allows them to possibly change nothing. Making them pay will insure many things will improve. Just my 2 cents worth. Be careful on the highways!
There was no unusual oil consumption or performance changes in the month before the filter failed. And I would also occasionally reset the Filter Minder to zero to make sure that it was reading a relatively current maximum suction – and I hadn’t noticed anything unusual there either.
The Farr filter that was on the bus when we purchased it was so caked in dirt that I was amazed that the engine even still ran when we first swapped it out, but it showed no signs of failing at all. That this Baldwin filter failed after such a short time and having been driven so few miles in such mild conditions is shocking.
We hardly ever even drove in the rain – our standard procedure is to get off the road when the weather even gets a bit wet!
could things be backwards?
Any chance that air filter smelled like coolant?
Perhaps the filter was a result of the overheating rather than the cause?
Yes.. as stated in the above article, we do keep open that the filter was perhaps an innocent bystander during the engine failure. However, there was no sign of coolant going in, and there was no smell of it.
Thanks Chris for the great writeup. I can only imagine my own frustration with an obvious filter failure, but the failure of the mfg to admit their own design error. It’s difficult enough to maintain these vehicles without the added confusion of filter failure! Just a minor point: it looks like your filter failed from the inside out, but your final advice said to especially avoid use in an outside to inside application? Did I misunderstand? Nevertheless, I’ll avoid Baldwin filters in the future.
Woops – I can’t believe I got that last bit backwards and I missed that in my proofreading!
I fixed it now, thanks.
“Inside to outside” flow direction is when this filter seems to be particularly worrisome in use.
I have to admit when I first saw the photo, I thought “oh no, they couldn’t have broken down again” and was relieved you didn’t. I’ve been following you for awhile and all through the engine rebuild….quite fascinating. Hope you are able to finally figure out what caused the failure. Happy trails 🙂
Wow! Thanks for a very well organized and detailed analysis of what you’ve learned.
I’m familiar with air filters that have mesh support – but never fully considered the implications to filters that can be used in either direction.
Well, all I gather from reading this is, never use a Baldwin filter. No filter should catastrophically fail like that. Period.
And really, I’ve only ever used WIX filters, so I had never even heard of Baldwin filters. I’ll just tuck that little snippet away, thanks.
Interesting comment from fella above about humidity stains. My thought was perhaps that (filter)stock was soaked in a flood somewhere, dried out and resold, unknown (or known) to the stock room, you bought it from.
Having a yearly oil change etc done to my 2 yr old coach last year, the Freightliner shop suggested that we change my air filter also. I pointed out that the indicator was in the “OK” range and the service person said the glue they use to stick the filter elements to the rings etc,
deteriorates after 2 yrs and the filter starts to fall apart. I know yours was only a year old after installation but maybe it sat on a shelf for years. Just another point to consider. I really enjoyed the rebuild process you guys posted.
Ah, excellent point about the age of the filter before installation. I know we have that date in our notes, and it was just a few months old then – well under an age of concern. Once we are back to the bus this afternoon, I’ll poke Cbris to update with that info.
According to the serial number, the filter was manufactured Oct 5, 2011. It had been on a shelf somewhere for many months before it was installed, but the filter was still well under two years since manufacture when it failed.
I too am curious if it might have somehow gotten wet before it was installed, but I actually happen to incidentally have a picture of the Baldwin box the filter came in when it was sent to Choo Choo Express garage, and the box at least was pristine cardboard.
Maybe it had gotten wet after being manufactured and before being packaged for sale?
Its common practice to “rebox” product if the packaging becomes damaged or faded.
I have never been a fan of “captured” filter media used in the design of your air filter. It doesn’t lend itself to an effective inspection during installation or service. I have to agree with a previous poster that Baldwins analysis is basically CYA. Keep an ear to the ground if you can to hear if Baldwin issues a stock recall on product with your date coding. In the mean time continue running a filter with a robust outer mesh.
I don’t trust filter minders, don’t have one and never will. I have run heavy equipment in lots of dirty, dusty conditions and have seen times when the minder said the filter was fine and yet the machine quit running because the filter was so clogged that no air was passing thru. I change all of my filters on a yearly basis due to age rather than mileage and if i were to go thru an extremely dusty area i would inspect and change the air filter if needed.
We never used our filter minder to determine when to change our filter, and since owning the bus routinely changed the filter annually. It’s just one tool to perhaps catch a problem.
However, it had been less than a year when this filter failed. And anything visible we could have inspected if we were suspect (we had not been in any dusty environments since installing it), could not have been visually seen without cutting apart the filter canister itself.
For decades I’ve been using Baldwin filters almost exclusively on all my vehicles. Your experience has shaken my trust in them.
Nice write up of your interaction with Baldwin. I wonder was the filter moisture contaminated while it sat on a shelf waiting for you to purchase it? I’m curious that only part of the filter medium has signs of moisture, if high humidity was the “cause”, the paper would be stained evenly.
I agree, looking at your pictures there is no way water could be ingested into the filter. I guess the jury is still out, but I’ll take your suggestion as gospel and never use a Baldwin air filter on my motorhome’s diesel!
I live in humid southern Indiana and locally I’ve been told by NAPA and AutoZone when replacing my car/truck filters for oil…use WIX….that is the same filter they use in the coal mines.
I know your problem was not with an oil filter but the name WIX seems to be very reputable and you did mention you had zero problem with your prior WIX filter.
Yup, Wix seems to have a good reputation. This time around, we went with a Donaldson, the standard at the Detroit Diesel shop that rebuilt us.
Good choice, that shop did a great job based on your posts and videos.
Wix was going to be my suggestion. They produce a number of filtering products under the Wix label and others such as Napa Gold. It’s what I use on my Perkins when available.